VOA [Voice of America] Africa : August 13, 2017 02:00AM-03:00AM EDT
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VOA [Voice of America] Africa : August 13, 2017 02:00AM-03:00AM EDT
- Publication date
- 2017-08-13
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- Radio Program, Punishments, Corporal punishments, Youth rights, Human rights abuses, Youth, Bantu countries and territories, Federal republics, Federal countries, Society, East Africa, Human rights, Least developed countries, Member states of the African Union, Commonwealth republics, School types, Community, Educational stages, Republics, Member states of the United Nations, Education issues, School terminology, Torture, Law enforcement, Royal titles, Political science, Countries of the Indian Ocean
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Closed captions transcript:
00:00:03
Good evening this is the Voice of America
and Washington Worldcom front of edition
00:00:07
of Reporter's Roundtable Douglas
simple gum will talk about
00:00:12
a power addiction among African leaders.
00:00:25
And with us tonight is my colleague John
tons and John is the host of South Sudan
00:00:29
and focus program here at v.o.a.
00:00:32
Welcome to the show John it's my pleasure
to be here you're very much well come on
00:00:36
joining us from Dublin South Africa is
sort of mine I'm going to an independent
00:00:40
political analyst Good evening
so my. How is double.
00:00:47
Fine thank. You very much well come on
joining us from Dallas Texas is the same you
00:00:53
freeze and I threw up and Sean put
00:00:55
a comment. I would have time on. My
00:01:06
mind. Yet evening gentlemen to once again
welcome to the show I said out of it's
00:01:12
made for the fall of the. African
leader as far as our listeners may
00:01:19
know that for instance in Libya
kind of when I got out for
00:01:22
a few years to give up power after more
than $44.00 decades in charge of that
00:01:26
country Ontario's record of my dad the Arab
Spring came to me in Tunisia and Egypt
00:01:31
the presidents were forced from power after
mass street demonstrations. I literally
00:01:36
had on and I would of course
00:01:37
a lot of backbone was caught up in this
terror minute after he was sworn in as
00:01:41
president it's by the country's u.n.
00:01:44
Back to the Truck Commission to grabbing
the survivors that we know of the Paul
00:01:47
many does on the continent have amended
or attempting to amend their constitution
00:01:51
stream of time limits so I want to make
some of these leaders cling to power at all
00:01:55
costs let me join their culture of
impunity is what makes them cling to power
00:02:02
because they have done so much. You know
they've done many bad things to their own
00:02:07
people and they're so scared that if they
go out there without the bodyguards with
00:02:12
the tongs without anything there is
possibility that they will be brought to
00:02:17
account and so that's one number 2
there are lots of. He didn't I gin the
00:02:24
some of these leaders have for
instance the become so rich
00:02:31
within
00:02:31
a very short time and people wonder where
they get that money from and so they're
00:02:37
also afraid that when they go out there
without the machinery of the state then
00:02:42
they become powerless because all these
reduce can be stripped from them so the
00:02:47
bottom line is there's something wrong that
they have done that they don't want to
00:02:51
. Be held accountable for
people you agree with that.
00:02:59
You know discuss. One to
cling to power for over
00:03:05
a lifetime president. For 5 to little.
00:03:13
In my own lifetime I remember
Emperor Haile Selassie. The name
00:03:20
his own son. The crown
prince I felt what some
00:03:27
and the it provided. Even though. It.
00:03:34
Manifest in these terms much was
said needed and despite the needle
00:03:38
a lot of crises in it. Tell you try and
solve his government to collapse and never
00:03:45
want to give up you never want to tool
for. Fully even you please only hold
00:03:52
in the crown prince and then came the
military. Government and just let them out
00:03:58
and and then did she was.
Wanted to cling to power and
00:04:05
now we have the same scenario
so I think. The problem is
00:04:11
a dictator who wants to cling to power for
00:04:14
a lot if. They. Want to clean
00:04:21
it until it is say that I'm going to be
like my producer you know. In the case of
00:04:27
Uganda we all know what the president will
say in the. Speech I think it was in New
00:04:33
York that you and. The problem
of Africa is that it's it's one
00:04:40
totally and now we can see that. It's
00:04:46
a vicious circle and so I agree it's
00:04:48
a culture. If
00:04:56
if when I want to see it for the keep
it for. Yeah I think we need better
00:05:03
categorize them and they say that at
the moment we have good 2 categories
00:05:10
over the continent Yeah those
will. Be the concept of being
00:05:17
a president as being the service for the
people using their good to give an.
00:05:24
Extra talent turned into the
best guy that doesn't set
00:05:28
a precedence and make life
better and then there is
00:05:31
a category of The Rose who I
see. Who will take power up.
00:05:38
In tension throughout decided
that to them may be due to their
00:05:44
background will do to the condition of the
finder and the underground they find it
00:05:51
pretty damn power mean everything I
think though that that category the 2nd
00:05:56
category you know to only advocate
but could be a politically c b s
00:06:02
t v Don't you know where they are today in
power means everything and at the moment
00:06:08
even ready to meet you can
be done to represent. Them
00:06:13
a can't see so join us on mentions them
what happened to the idea of police
00:06:20
being
00:06:20
a public service why you got some of the
people the in the in other areas of the
00:06:24
wild or in the past people
just think of leadership as
00:06:27
a service the people who are the servant
of the people that sometimes would be the
00:06:30
case these days well it's not the case
these days because the concept of being
00:06:37
a leader has been. Misunderstood
or rather. Put in
00:06:43
a way that people go into politics in order
to loot because they see this is the
00:06:48
easiest to place where you can take
00:06:49
a lot of money and nobody holds you
accountable because if you look at what they
00:06:55
call. Parliament that is supposed to hold
executive accountable this parliament
00:07:00
becomes
00:07:01
a rubber stamp because most of the leaders
there want to police the president so
00:07:07
that they're appointed as ministers they're
appointed instead of Pakistan and so
00:07:12
the bottom line is that people who elect
these M.P.'s all members of parliament
00:07:18
suffer because these members of Parliament
go there for their own agenda not that
00:07:23
end of the people and I have seen it
in my country most people who. Would
00:07:30
want to of to go for politics you
see them becoming rich within
00:07:33
a very short time and you
wonder even m.p.e. Even m.p.
00:07:37
Salary is let's say 5000 years dollars per
month and he has like 20 people to take
00:07:43
care of where does he get
money to buy $65000.00 u.s.
00:07:47
Dollars and he has 5 of them on his own
Well that's a good money to put up
00:07:52
a $56.00 storey building within
00:07:54
a very short time so you wonder and to
me my conclusion is that people go to
00:07:59
politics in order to get rich so I ask
them to what extent is corruption and I'm
00:08:05
stealing
00:08:05
a favorite thief I mean this idea of
stealing not national resources in fact time
00:08:10
because it has clinging onto power. Yes
00:08:13
a lot of the one you know
when because. Most of.
00:08:20
The litter in most countries in Africa
limits even though they pretend.
00:08:29
Station. By the Constitution.
00:08:38
Limits because they're
absolute dictator of.
00:08:45
A country they give it to whomever they
want you know the credit patronage.
00:08:53
To keep in line with their. Dictatorship
of those who refuse to be psychopaths and
00:08:59
there will be limits. On that one point
or another point that we forgot is that.
00:09:06
The reason that they want to cling to
power most of these dictators is that the
00:09:11
very means that. They came to power
is usually by the bottom of the gun
00:09:18
and then the way they maintain their
policies also by the bottom of
00:09:21
a gun and then in the process you know
they call me a lot of crimes from point
00:09:27
a few to step down even though in the case
of my country of one point you know I'm
00:09:34
in 2005 when you come in the
ruling party of militia and. Its
00:09:41
election and when the opposition
realize that stepping down and even
00:09:48
told them that they're not going to we chant
you know that it's not going to be any
00:09:52
of the television and because. Most
of the opposition leader really felt
00:09:58
responsible that. They wanted to keep the
country safe you know that they do want
00:10:05
the country to go in in the power of you
know. They tried to come forward they
00:10:11
tried to really try to reassure them that
there's not going to be any backlash but
00:10:18
you know they didn't want to fool
proxied. A defeat for they can
00:10:25
put all of now all you know all of the
consequences of Clinton for power. Sometimes
00:10:32
you know when some of the city it happened
in Africa we thought we can some of you
00:10:36
can countries when. One
can put dies. That's
00:10:42
a country because they didn't have an Clift
any room for peaceful transfer of power
00:10:48
they didn't want any responsible person
pre-marriage you know in the absence.
00:10:55
Libya in the case of Libya and even some
of the African countries they're willing
00:10:59
to. Take
00:11:01
a look. Now at least 11. Elements between
00:11:09
lieutenants and his deputies when militia
and because of that point to one
00:11:16
person you don't know about him feeling
he has no part of and. For the people you
00:11:22
know. Warship. I don't really
00:11:29
mean that much but then somehow.
I mean a lot. More looks with
00:11:35
a visionary leader and the prime minister
the current prime minister while I'm out
00:11:39
in the following doesn't. You know
it doesn't surprise by him you know
00:11:46
he can't even come on
the armed forces it is
00:11:49
a committee you know behind him there is
00:11:51
a committee you know and the
ruling party. Where the real
00:11:58
resides and the to the right people people
Russian folk the minority ethnic group.
00:12:04
Now we are now the emergence of
the people because they found it.
00:12:12
Difficult for you know. For
one of them to emerge.
00:12:19
And replace my legs and. They thought
they canceled the scopolamine
00:12:26
by appointing him but I think the meantime
the ones who are on the short I think.
00:12:33
Is it fair to assume that some of the lead
up. To the perception that the strong
00:12:40
leader they may be very insecure that they
think if they live power they would be
00:12:45
held to account or. Made for you because
it doesn't suit you that they want to
00:12:52
cling to power.
00:12:59
Problem themselves.
00:13:07
That last.
00:13:22
Step seem to someone. Destructive.
00:13:33
Being destroyed.
00:13:57
So that the. People get.
00:14:04
Destroyed one by one.
00:14:11
Even the government. After.
00:14:20
Grumbling. About.
00:14:35
By that time. People like.
00:14:48
Mad because he wakes up on. The money in
00:14:53
a country. The country belongs to so that.
00:15:03
Destroy. The nation I think
gentlemen let's take
00:15:08
a short break on their discussion of power
addiction among African leaders. Well
00:15:15
maybe we don't need the break or less
continual but tougher than those of you
00:15:18
joining us right now we are listening for
photos roundtable and well coming to
00:15:21
a live from the voice of Michael Steele
is here in Washington our talk tonight is
00:15:25
politics and among African leaders as our
panelists John Townsend my colleague the
00:15:30
host of South Sudan in
focus the same kid from
00:15:33
a fresh on political commentator. South
Africa best independent political analyst
00:15:39
and I'm your host Douglas simple back here
in studio and I'm now joined you just
00:15:44
heard from. Slim out of there. Institutions
for the fall for you know to be
00:15:51
able to stay in power for longer than he
ought to he make sure that decisions are
00:15:56
collapsed because that would hold him
accountable. For this so you become the state
00:16:01
watchman Yes when they do talk to call it
because they know that the instruments of
00:16:07
accountability. Strong You cannot escape
them and so what they do is they are point
00:16:14
. Cronies in these strategic institutions
like the judiciary and the head of the
00:16:21
Parliament might put a speaker there
was your past and then put in
00:16:25
a finance minister who is your buddy and
put someone in charge of the military who
00:16:30
is your friend sign or brother brother
to the extreme and someone in charge of
00:16:36
national security who is your men and
so you continue ruling and these people
00:16:41
protect you because they've been defeated
by proxy they're given handouts and they
00:16:47
also enrich themselves they have their
own projects and so that this cycle
00:16:52
continues within this clinic and this is
done at the expense of the poor who are
00:16:59
suppose to get services from from
the government as they say but it's
00:17:05
unfortunate that voters you know
out are blindfolded. To $3.00.
00:17:13
During election time these corrupt leaders
go back to office and this is this is
00:17:19
this is what is happening in Africa despite
civic education despite the win is that
00:17:25
people created about people's rights about
human rights but the same people vote
00:17:31
and once they would these dictators in
the us end up being victims of I think
00:17:37
Justice and the least is just and this is
00:17:39
a sad story so gentlemen are
told to. Remember that this is.
00:17:46
So in that case that we need the medicine
so. What ought to be done now in that
00:17:52
case because. Across the continent the
number of people who want to cling to power
00:17:59
involved who are going to
succeed and some really fight
00:18:01
a 4th out of the 25005 the number is
growing you know the growth in this not
00:18:06
producing So what ought to be done
I think what ought to be done is.
00:18:14
Activity. You know human rights
defenders even for don't have to
00:18:20
respect their. Profession have to
continue to speak the truth they have to
00:18:27
credit our absolute. 0
up Absolutely not it is
00:18:34
still. It's not
00:18:37
a cliche I mean it's. A
valid statement. You know
00:18:44
experts who want to cling to power for
life but they're not totally destroy
00:18:48
institutions even quite correct
demented society they create. A
00:18:55
feudal. Feudal climate and because of
that we see that what's happening in
00:19:01
Rwanda and the old people one.
Minutes away and it's all over
00:19:08
which is not the case that we know
that we made to London's outside of
00:19:12
a one. Phylum seekers their. Preferred
because that extent these dictators you
00:19:19
know tries to wield their part and it's
very scary I think on the solution the
00:19:25
medicine is for activists to
continue. Picking up courageously
00:19:32
and to try to influence African Union
African Union. Some kind of legislation
00:19:39
against. Groups who
take power by accorded.
00:19:46
The union should also have to come up with
some kind of legislation of course the
00:19:52
African Union is also controlled by this
defenders but still you know the activists
00:19:58
shouldn't be discouraged by that they
have to continue speaking up and try to
00:20:04
influence the African Union and. Mickey to
pass some kind of legislation for those
00:20:09
school regulations for those who want
to continue for over. There is the.
00:20:17
Argument presented by. By. The
by the likes of the wind up
00:20:24
you know trying to justify you know and
trying to equate it with European countries
00:20:30
. That doesn't have that don't have you
know that doesn't have term limits but
00:20:37
these countries have. To take some balance
even though they don't probably before
00:20:43
their prime minister for their
president. Institutions had
00:20:48
a very strong in the case of most
African countries that is not. The case
00:20:55
you know they come from all the
institutions even controllable to create
00:21:00
a climate of fear in the society and.
00:21:07
Tools to do away with prison you know
all our own limits is. It's not right
00:21:15
I mean. That we have proper
checks and balances that
00:21:20
a power of any limits.
Limits you know we have to.
00:21:27
You know have to continue speaking up
against this kind of you know dictatorship.
00:21:34
That talks about speaking out by activists
by ever but they all can speak out but I
00:21:39
wonder. Which kind of. Language This is
what I understand because the Speaking
00:21:46
Out alone doesn't quite cut it. You speak
00:21:51
a different language what
do you think one of. Them.
00:21:59
What you have. What you.
Continue because what
00:22:06
is important is to reach the masses
the example of. The example in
00:22:13
Nigeria they have shown us that once
the population they feel. They need
00:22:20
to be dictators. Need to be clear about
that what we should make clear to the
00:22:26
people that there is no correlation
between us and the success of governance.
00:22:34
Only for us but. Only the
achievement within 4 years that
00:22:41
we tried to get. Some doors they
00:22:48
have not that what we have achieved.
00:22:55
In. My brain. They launched
00:22:58
a really savvy set around town. 5 guys.
00:23:07
They have said they had been able to meet
their elite in town an electric town
00:23:14
how how much do. You
need to be connected by.
00:23:25
That that enough. A leader has
to stay put that actually many
00:23:32
of them. Do something. They have
nothing to do with you're going to
00:23:38
get it I mean you've done that you don't
hear another bust out of the Government's
00:23:42
about them using your
gun you don't even have
00:23:44
a national bank in Uganda for that matter
for the money like they did that power so
00:23:51
. These dictators if they
do they come. Back what.
00:23:58
Somebody after they have lived in the country
that's it difficult to govern because
00:24:03
they create structures back to.
00:24:11
Front so you would get credit to
00:24:12
a presidential. The
Onion. Would take special
00:24:19
privileges unit but even so the country
gets breakdown after they have left so the
00:24:25
more they stay the more it will be difficult
to go to the country today that we
00:24:30
need to try to. Join the
main. Job. Go ahead bring.
00:24:38
Them on
00:24:39
a very good example about the
railway line. Making it. A railway
00:24:46
line and. You know they have
been in power for the last
00:24:53
25 years and we're not even sure
about that. And it depends on.
00:25:02
Electricity polity. You know. What.
00:25:15
I think so John maybe some of this
really does they feel that if they do
00:25:19
a lot of good things or do some development
in their countries they may finish all
00:25:23
the work so so and so they must spread it
out. Sometimes that's not necessarily the
00:25:28
case they're coming without projects
they come with their personal projects
00:25:32
personal ambitions of becoming very rich
and you know they do that so that you
00:25:39
don't touch them because money is power
and you have seen that most of the people
00:25:44
who have overstayed are very rich and they're
very powerful but I want to get back
00:25:49
to the question of using civil society to
change I am not sure whether the civil
00:25:56
society will be very very active in
00:25:58
a militarized society I'm
saying that given looking at
00:26:02
a country like South Sudan some South
Sudan is so militarized that people are
00:26:07
afraid to speak the media is working on
self-censorship because the government does
00:26:12
not want to listen to any other voice they
want the people to listen to their lies
00:26:17
only. I'm sorry to say that but that's
the truth in any alternative voice is
00:26:23
regarded as an opposition it's regarded
as you know poisonous and so in
00:26:28
a country like that I don't see this civil
society reaching out to the people with
00:26:34
a message of change and African Union are
coming to I'm thinking you know it's
00:26:38
a clash of dictators I have been saying
in my mother found that the dog does not
00:26:41
bite very hard so I don't see African Union
you know cracking down on these people
00:26:48
who are over staying in
power all we need is
00:26:50
a critical mass an elite mass that can reach
out to tell them come on man and women
00:26:56
who are voting every year to say no
don't vote this year you're voting for
00:27:00
a thief who will go and steal your money
so briefly. One Watoto do you think John
00:27:07
that this status quo can be changed
it can be changed but it needs
00:27:11
a lot of work and this has to start with
at an elite mass but the reason why I'm
00:27:17
saying that is because if you touched
that this country needs to change this
00:27:23
continent needs to change then you need
to reach out to somebody who is also
00:27:26
touched I say and the 3 or 4 of you all 5
of you in each country could come up with
00:27:32
a consortium that would you know do
something that would result into
00:27:36
a positive results because as
it is now the people inside had
00:27:41
a place so the money $1.00 word yes or
no will become this kind of stance for
00:27:44
change. So knowing that the
international community hopes.
00:27:53
You know that money can buy. No I came.
00:28:00
To my achievement on one of the
yes I know. Yeah it takes time.
00:28:08
Yeah yeah yeah but. One thing that I
would like caught a little bit of
00:28:13
a little bit about the civil society.
Completely disregard the civic society
00:28:19
because without civil society to be there
would come out quite critical much I
00:28:24
don't care if. You kind
of. May well call me no
00:28:31
pork and. We would. Want to cling to
00:28:37
power you know if you remember if
we remember. The middle of. That.
00:28:45
We had all the time of the you know thing
about public space you know I don't claim
00:28:50
Well yeah we got off to
00:28:52
a shot of me because you know this debate
that's the time we have for this edition
00:28:56
Reporters Roundtable let me
thank our panel John towns
00:28:59
a host of South Sudan in focus same key
flew an Ethiopian especially on political
00:29:03
mentor into. An independent economists based
in South Africa Gentlemen thanks very
00:29:07
much for being on the show you know what
you're welcome thank you for inviting me
00:29:11
you welcome our producer there was just one
you know engineer was John Braden we're
00:29:16
back again next week with another edition
of reporters roundtable and Amanda that
00:29:19
in case you missed any part of this program
you can see this intrigued by going to
00:29:22
our main web site w w
00:29:24
w dot venue's dot com click on Programs and
scroll down for vote on table. You know
00:29:31
email is reporter venue's dot com Thanks
again for tuning in and until next week.
00:29:36
Simple in Washington.
00:30:10
What's going on what's happening I forgot
this is Jacksonville got me right here in
00:30:14
Washington d.c.
00:30:15
And I'm not yes Sound me thanks for joining
us media love to have you on board this
00:30:20
up front on the boy said to me. Go
go well advice of American you yes.
00:30:28
You know. Regional to you
00:30:35
from the Voice of America and you'll see
when you money well I said yeah yeah.
00:30:47
In many schools across Africa displaying
00:30:49
a reaction often comes in form of corporal
punishment teachers do not hesitate to
00:30:55
use the cane slaps in whips to maintain
discipline in class students who under
00:31:01
performing class also Panish as
00:31:04
a weird to scare them into performing
better on the next exam in an education
00:31:08
system where
00:31:09
a lot of attention he's paid to performance
in standardized tests is to know who
00:31:14
falls behind his sudden grand will most
likely be punished by whipping beating will
00:31:20
slapping by the teachers now of lead to
there has been some of the bets on how we
00:31:26
corporal punishment he's in helping students
improve on this plane and academics in
00:31:32
some parts of Africa laws have been passed
to make it illegal to be students but is
00:31:37
still persists and we continue to seek
as West Indians are severely injured and
00:31:42
both physically and emotionally by the
beatings some to. And parents continue to
00:31:47
support corporal punishment they said that
this is the only way that this plane can
00:31:52
be maintained and I condemn x.
00:31:54
Improved in schools others disagree in
fact they say that such punishment is
00:31:59
ineffective and also violates international
child laws so what is your take on this
00:32:05
should be eating or corporal punishment
be banned in schools does your school
00:32:10
punish the students by beating them when
they commit an infraction older not do
00:32:15
well in school let's talk this is upfront
on The Voice of America on Jackson from
00:32:20
Daniel Washington with me in
Johannesburg South Africa.
00:32:34
In Africa generally when you are young the
best way to bring you up is to. Training
00:32:41
School either from your undies
or you. Model your father.
00:32:48
Glorious or being in
00:32:49
a man and being one in the future so
when you do something wrong the best
00:32:56
actually is to to to to long at least give
you something yes this of course when I
00:33:03
was in primary school to go to so many
of these one is that sometime you go to
00:33:08
school very late some time you know you
don't abide by this one rules of English
00:33:13
friends and the best way to go to you
is to give you some Pew kids find
00:33:18
a way how to correct them apart from having
inflicting physical feeling physical
00:33:25
injury to make them and as time that what
they're doing wrong you can correct them
00:33:30
I probably instilling maybe something else
maybe formation that can correct them
00:33:35
and help them understand what they're
doing is wrong and these would do things
00:33:40
differently you really hit the part of Fast
and punishing you don't matter whether
00:33:44
you are or not you see that is. The problem
because their time to go ahead I used
00:33:48
to hit them up was known now but I used
to hate them because the punishment they
00:33:52
would punish you and you think you're not
wrong but you see them they feel you are
00:33:56
wrong but because they don't find
00:33:58
a way to communicate to you they want to
inflict that. Or pain so that make you
00:34:04
invest time. Try you understand but you
sometimes people want to do that I think
00:34:09
anyway because. He doesn't walk. Down.
00:34:27
To.
00:34:38
The truth.
00:35:51
Had beating
00:35:52
a student for that student will be afraid
when the end of the class is that awful
00:35:57
because in trading on what you are she
is teaching you I should feel like
00:36:00
a loser beats me every day so do you what
you want was included on what is he or
00:36:05
she's teaching reading in school
even if they keep it in there in
00:36:08
a Jiffy Lube in some students one but once
you know. They told us to be beaten she
00:36:15
still could. Have caused her to
binge drinking I don't think that's
00:36:20
a very safe you talk to somebody and you
could do that just in the ways you can get
00:36:24
the things going to be able to react when
you're going to need to stop what's going
00:36:28
to come to them. No I have never been
beaten at school because when they teach us
00:36:33
trade something to me saying yeah I am
better to day when I was out there and not
00:36:40
making
00:36:40
a lot of money and said I'm getting better
when you get that idea about it but I
00:36:45
think it did and some of the programs the
girls and their job is to teach them and
00:36:50
Myrtle Beach and I'm upset
inspired mom who was
00:36:53
a friend see that to us in the conflicts
of interest which is to have those up on
00:36:58
point time from details on all 3 of you
what amounted to be consistent doesn't
00:37:03
allow you still by just
given mock freedom to be
00:37:07
a little I don't like I'm used to
talking with you is just not going to.
00:37:14
Be. My time in the world
to come up with herpes
00:37:18
a function that is so much in
dispute. Yet invented to prevent it
00:37:26
you know making
00:37:26
a little more you. Get into it when you
get. Paid and the more you put people
00:37:34
on my side that I did about
it I think you give that up
00:37:37
a few weeks ago because the job is
to ram and you have to be trouble.
00:37:47
We know that corporal punishment is used.
In schools around the continent for
00:37:54
a number of reasons most common
needs to instill discipline or to
00:38:01
to punish students fool for alleged
wrongdoing whatever the case may be
00:38:08
but we've certainly heard you
boards of young Julian d.c.
00:38:12
Being corporal punishment canings beatings
8 states for coming to school late
00:38:19
missing school without permission having
dirty with 2 in school uniforms and not
00:38:26
doing homework and this obeying
teaches the mind it's data it's
00:38:31
a state to these are just
some of the diseases and. And
00:38:35
a lot of these reasons are things that most
students would come across in the a.b.
00:38:39
Daily lives. You might be too late or you
might have missed you doing your homework
00:38:44
provided Do you think these and these are
things that happen in schools every day
00:38:49
and we need to discuss what is what is the
key to punishments being to be handed
00:38:53
out certainly be recon say that bringing
on the work will always be the best way.
00:39:01
The argument among the proper credit of the
punishments is that if you bid students
00:39:06
they will perform all the will understand
it better and they will know better next
00:39:11
time others disagree and say that this
form of education quote unquote damages
00:39:16
a student's prospects of being a well
formed adult but also in the fears with
00:39:21
a child's right to receive an education and
to be protected from violence Christer
00:39:26
know Corey is
00:39:27
a Nigerian American whose parents are
immigrants from Nigeria she went to school in
00:39:34
suburban Washington and was never on the
receiving end of any type of corporal
00:39:39
punishment
00:39:39
a the at school or at home so usually the
teachers would give the students about 2
00:39:45
to 3 warning. Things and then kind of
depending on the offense. If you have it they
00:39:51
would either kind of not let them go to
recess so they'd have extra homework. Extra
00:39:58
homework was going to. Be sent
to the to the principal's
00:40:04
office and then the teachers would be
called in to conferences so that's kind of
00:40:08
like the level of us collation sometimes
they were those the those if you did the
00:40:13
1st on 2nd time offense 3rd time offense
Yes So usually it was like warnings and
00:40:19
and if you kind of didn't pay attention
to the warnings then so it was like you
00:40:23
know recess more home or no different that
was already going to work for me I was
00:40:28
always afraid of getting really but like
for for other kids I mean it kind of just
00:40:32
depend mean you or you always have those
problem kids in class I really just like
00:40:37
don't care and act out but I feel like
00:40:38
a lot of it is just kind of like what's
being taught in just having. On the part of
00:40:44
teachers making sure that their content
is interesting to everybody and like can
00:40:48
keep everyone so there was the
option of being whipped by
00:40:51
a teacher or any school administrator for
any in front for you know never happened
00:40:56
was not part of it no not not at all not
what you were just out to understand that
00:41:01
wasn't part of the option was deaf ear at
any point that I will of play my hand and
00:41:08
that teacher might smack me you beat me
you know I mean there'd be legal rapper
00:41:12
questions to the school if that ever
happened to students and if you didn't you
00:41:15
knew that I mean I knew that that wasn't
the protocol so I mean because i never
00:41:22
happen so it did happen like write home and
tell Mom and Dad and now you know your
00:41:27
parents at home didn't spank you at all
you know I was always good company I mean
00:41:33
your parents I guess a different
approach Yeah I was I did actually
00:41:36
a different attitude too I think because
they went through that I feel like they
00:41:41
did not want to have the same approach to
disciplining their children as they went
00:41:46
through when they were young so
like with me and my brothers
00:41:48
a never was never was spankings at least
for me like they never kind of went that
00:41:53
route they usually just tell me to do
something and then I you were just
00:41:58
a good kid yeah basically group everybody
you know how to tell your side to them
00:42:03
how were you able to maintain that and get
away with it I mean what they don't know
00:42:08
can't hurt them right. You were
just too smart to quote when it
00:42:15
got to do you feel like that I'm bringing
ship to you yeah I mean I think it did I
00:42:20
mean I was always kind of
like still a total It's
00:42:23
a really Yeah I mean I think it I think it
did I think I kind of recognize now like
00:42:27
what I see at least isn't like generations
that I mean I feel like there's not as
00:42:32
much kind of respect for elders unlike
respect for parents and teachers as there
00:42:39
were in prior generations
which is which is
00:42:41
a bit alarming but for me. Kind of was like
I feel like I grew up with those values
00:42:46
of you know respecting those that are older
than you. But it's kind of unsettling
00:42:51
that there isn't that what is interesting
is that you say that in this generation.
00:42:58
Kids are not as respectful of their elders
or less display and then you were yet
00:43:05
you were both raised in the same system
well what's the difference between you and
00:43:09
them Ok I guess let me let me clarify
I notice kind of among. Was immigrant
00:43:16
families I feel like that's are as much
of an issue just because you have that
00:43:20
culture of kind of respecting those that
are older than you mean you call everyone
00:43:24
that order the new even if it's an older
cousin your uncle your auntie or whatever
00:43:28
but I feel like kind of in the mainstream
population those values aren't
00:43:33
necessarily as inherent I'm not sure
if it's necessarily due to the lack of
00:43:37
corporal punishment as it is just
00:43:39
a kind of the emphasis placed on like renting
Yeah yeah exactly so I feel like it's
00:43:45
just kind of your parenting style and
matching that to the personalities that your
00:43:50
children develop say grow because I mean
some kids are going to be slapped around
00:43:54
for them to really understand what's going
on and to actually change their behavior
00:43:58
but other kids you know you don't
necessarily have to go that route where.
00:44:08
What is the policy on corporal punishment
in South Africa where you began as
00:44:12
a young high school student Well corporal
punishment easy legal in South Africa
00:44:17
Jackson teachers do not have
00:44:20
a mandate to beat children and ease
against the no. The i've been many
00:44:26
cases we students have days the alarm
just recently revived and incident in
00:44:33
South Africa we amateur footage cellphone
footage actually has come to light
00:44:40
and students were beaten on the school
drawn by the principal and accompanied by
00:44:46
the school security guards
in the background summary
00:44:49
a fellow student was actually decoding the
beating this is causing huge opera in
00:44:54
the county and easy against the no Similarly
with patrons as well parents are not
00:44:59
in la and times of the Lol to beat the
children the problem is that in some of the
00:45:05
cases we've seen in South Africa and
school being done even though it's not
00:45:08
supposed to be done in the east will be
done and it's not just like beatings that
00:45:11
we're seeing Jackson it's beatings we young
people also. Staining C.D.'s in Judy's
00:45:17
we've seen bruising to the face
to the body. And there's been
00:45:22
a big outcry human it adds bodies are
saying we need to step up the watch against
00:45:27
this but on the other hand now teachers
are saying the situations in school are
00:45:33
becoming increasingly hard to deal with
and that today NJ is for. Behavior from
00:45:40
students in the school this has been
an issue that's been in our local news
00:45:44
a lot recently and we've certainly had
all humans from both sides. A lot of
00:45:51
tradition in this to say we're all in
the postie young people would be 10 and
00:45:56
they've turned out quite
a load I could do as
00:45:58
a means of instilling discipline but I
think the wadding fact is that in some of
00:46:02
the incidences we see it goes beyond
instilling discipline but it's actually
00:46:08
injuring children such
00:46:09
a way that it might did them all for
education that attends him away from school
00:46:14
that they don't want to come back into
the classroom they don't want to face
00:46:17
teachers because they are living in fear
and certainly that's not the type of
00:46:20
environment that you really want to have
in our schools anyway it on the country.
00:46:42
Was.
00:46:52
Going.
00:46:59
For it so your.
00:47:14
Studies. You.
00:47:22
Know.
00:47:32
It's.
00:47:43
Just.
00:47:51
That. People would they see here. Might be
00:47:57
tame to want their horses. To.
Believe that when you want
00:48:04
to somebody that doesn't feel you've done
something he also has done something
00:48:10
wrong you have to pinch
00:48:11
a beat David look I'm from South Sudan and
the culture of beating children. Child's
00:48:17
rights that. People are getting killed if
you get to look in the context of all of
00:48:23
our culture African culture.
I'm quite sure. It's not like
00:48:30
when people use beating like beating
00:48:32
a child to death you know my name is Eve I
was my. Dad I go south Sudan I do. What
00:48:39
I can say about. The punishment especially
in school for that moment. At home.
00:48:47
That it happens and not forgotten College
of not Italy I think this we have the
00:48:52
right and spoil the child came from I'm
not so sure about that is what I think it
00:48:56
came from I forgot
something like that you.
00:49:07
Tube. Julie. Julie Julie Julie.
00:49:22
This one goes both ways it depends
how you bring up my child I'm
00:49:26
a father I have 2 kids. 2 and 4
years sometimes I have to do with
00:49:33
them and you know make them my last time
and that what they're doing is not right
00:49:38
but I think also even if
you don't have to beat
00:49:40
a child for them to know if something is
wrong you can talk to them and you see
00:49:45
that if you talk to them politely it is
it it given goes far more than correcting
00:49:51
them like that beating them because you
see if you beat them you instill fear you
00:49:55
know in fear is not good especially for
00:49:57
a child grows up fearing somebody
or something that much they have
00:50:02
a vivid overtimes kind of psychological
problem so I think of punishment punishing
00:50:09
children is something which actually should
get one wished spanking is is actually
00:50:14
part of bringing up the child you know it
depends on the you know the context and
00:50:20
the culture. Consuming and when I
get back on the connection that.
00:50:30
Is trying to track. Now you have some
have argued that corporal punishment is
00:50:37
not limited to schools and that in
fact it's an extension of the type of
00:50:41
disciplinary action that many African parents
exercise at home with their children
00:50:47
when a child misbehaves they get slapped
so beaten by by anybody actually
00:50:51
a family member has the right to sue to
discipline them so I did use only doing
00:50:56
what is generally acceptable form of
disciplinary action you know African home so
00:51:01
my calling cannot fantic we were recounting
our experiences in high school he went
00:51:06
to school in I went to East to school
in East Africa where both recipients of
00:51:11
corporal punishment agrees with me that
I. This is an extension of the type of
00:51:17
display nary action or activity that many
African parents exercise in their homes
00:51:24
and so in school it becomes
00:51:26
a norm beating was part of their regular
school life it starts flag hoisting
00:51:32
ceremony in the morning where we seeing
National Anthem and right after the
00:51:39
national anthem is when they call the bad
boy self the entire school now is like
00:51:45
a morning ritual every day it's
00:51:46
a morning ritual. You know
we have homeroom teachers
00:51:53
who basically have our attendance they know
our grades and everything you know they
00:51:58
have an understanding of where everybody
is in terms of behavior and you know at
00:52:03
the end of the year they also give
you grades for that so they keep
00:52:08
a tab on you pretty much and one when the
time is full then you would be called out
00:52:13
in the morning flag hoisting ceremony and
come here and his crime would be read he
00:52:20
stole
00:52:21
a carrot from. A group Culture
Project where the student
00:52:28
actually worked. And he would be beat right
in front of us so he would be sentenced
00:52:35
to weeping like 10 weeping 15 weeping
I find something very disturbing with
00:52:39
a public whipping ceremony you know if you
like there is something ceremony you and
00:52:46
you know like some teachers enjoying the
teachers and very Here's the thing though
00:52:52
the students who are about to get that
whipping they understand it so you put on 3
00:52:58
or 4 pairs. Like
00:53:02
a winter jacket on. You know to suppression
of that so we actually did teachers
00:53:09
especially there's a unit leader
from from the teachers there's
00:53:13
a unit leader for that. For the entire
school one or 2 unit leaders was like. Fine
00:53:19
Isha she said we don't want to
say so it would try to 1st and
00:53:26
if it doesn't it gave us their expected
if it was like It's not like the way you
00:53:33
react to your heart then you need.
Your jacket. Take your pants.
00:53:40
You get everywhere and they have got and
create and over time I mean I don't know
00:53:46
how bad it is right now but I find that
school administrators have gotten very
00:53:51
creative and you know high school we had
00:53:53
a person whose job was to go on calling
from the forest did you have that person
00:53:57
that we have we have monitors class morning
talkers and usually the class monitors
00:54:03
especially when I was in elementary school
older guys you know this kids did some
00:54:09
farming or herding So they're like 15 when
they're in 1st grade so they would be
00:54:15
the monitors of like class
and actually in fact
00:54:18
a lot of the whipping comes from the
monitors they will just tell you sit down
00:54:23
straight and if you don't sit down straight
and don't say anything if the teacher
00:54:29
is not there it's them wanted to who is in
charge and they have every right to have
00:54:33
absolutely no use. For you and they want
to be the ones to go to the forest and
00:54:39
collect whips for the homeroom teacher and
the teacher says well but the problem is
00:54:45
you know these things don't last long they're
not plastics you said they're really
00:54:50
creative about it is if you in fact use
it it's going to break after weeping to
00:54:57
3 students they don't want they want it
to last year you did you read Bill it was
00:55:03
something that we're striving for Exactly
so this is some of this you know older
00:55:07
country boys that have
00:55:08
a way of making these things durable so
what they do is they smoke it so you put it
00:55:14
under
00:55:14
a chimney full. 2 weeks so when you wait
but child it's flexible enough that it's
00:55:21
not going to break and one
of my 2nd grade classmates.
00:55:28
I remember his name he had 61
whipping on the left hand and
00:55:35
yes he stopped crying at some point and
he just you know it's just just horrible
00:55:40
it's cruel I guess you know. The most
bizarre way that's their way of fighting
00:55:46
deforestation you know. But I think as
much for you know in high school as though
00:55:51
the school had a budget for
00:55:54
a week and actually you know the ones
that they used during slavery. We
00:56:01
had
00:56:02
a budget for that. To get something from you
know somebody goes to the market to buy
00:56:08
that the unit leader carries one all the
security guards in front of the school to
00:56:12
carry one so they would be like whipping
students as they go into ice not
00:56:18
a lot of. High school class there was
00:56:21
a bit of enjoyment here by the people who
had that we need for them in some way of
00:56:26
discipling students really I mean for me
it's really cruel and it's reciprocated
00:56:34
the money turned into
00:56:35
a class does exactly the same thing that
the teachers do and even some of your
00:56:41
classmates amongst one another we've become
you know violent beating someone is Ok
00:56:46
it's justified you can beat someone you can
bully someone whatever you want because
00:56:50
you know violence in a way as
I said plenty Yes measured as
00:56:54
a differently just more of my never singing
the national anthem how effective was
00:56:59
this as
00:56:59
a disciplinary measure how effective I'll
tell you what it can be effective for
00:57:04
some but mainly if you look at it
00:57:08
a lot of students in fact when they are
in high school they started rioting and
00:57:13
saying well if the teacher wants to be.
I'll beat you because now I'm old enough to
00:57:17
beat you so that was. The reaction that
most of the teachers were getting but I
00:57:24
think teachers in elementary schools can
get away with it because the children are
00:57:28
not physically you know mature enough to
challenge them and saying why are you
00:57:33
beating me so you just take the beating
and hope that more of them are not coming
00:57:39
it's sad you know it doesn't help
students learn better. It doesn't help
00:57:46
students behave better but you
know. Yes and it's going to.
00:57:54
Solve their problems by just
like. Yes treating is the.
00:58:03
Thank you very much thanks for having me.
00:58:16
Now you want to child is in school
teachers expected to act as
00:58:20
a substitute parent so one should treat
the students as if they were their own
00:58:27
and many cases the students don't feel that
way absolutely Jackson I mean you would
00:58:33
hope that your days your child and instill
the nascent city to speak for you Al
00:58:39
does and the daily food for the
classroom and the school and you feel
00:58:43
a Lynas and so it is frustrating for
teachers as well we we see teachers are
00:58:49
teaching overcrowded Closs is really they've
got sometimes $100.00 or more students
00:58:54
to across the room and or did it takes is
00:58:57
a small pocket to decide operating
for the whole day I mean the extreme
00:59:01
frustrations on both sides
but surely there is
00:59:04
a line between instilling
discipline and punishing in
00:59:07
a nonphysical way to floating
00:59:10
a child reply disposal Surely that's not
acceptable Surely that's against you.
00:59:15
Writes and Sidney and be a dad
has an impact on education j.d.
00:59:20
.
00:59:29
Thanks trying out of us today guys we
always love having you on board and we love
00:59:33
to hear from you so keep those comments
coming in to up front of you know News dot
00:59:38
com It was awesome hanging out will be here
same time same place next week I'm not
00:59:43
you saw me signing off from both Africa and
objects involved in Washington on until
00:59:49
next time good bye. This is where.
00:59:58
You.
00:00:03
Good evening this is the Voice of America
and Washington Worldcom front of edition
00:00:07
of Reporter's Roundtable Douglas
simple gum will talk about
00:00:12
a power addiction among African leaders.
00:00:25
And with us tonight is my colleague John
tons and John is the host of South Sudan
00:00:29
and focus program here at v.o.a.
00:00:32
Welcome to the show John it's my pleasure
to be here you're very much well come on
00:00:36
joining us from Dublin South Africa is
sort of mine I'm going to an independent
00:00:40
political analyst Good evening
so my. How is double.
00:00:47
Fine thank. You very much well come on
joining us from Dallas Texas is the same you
00:00:53
freeze and I threw up and Sean put
00:00:55
a comment. I would have time on. My
00:01:06
mind. Yet evening gentlemen to once again
welcome to the show I said out of it's
00:01:12
made for the fall of the. African
leader as far as our listeners may
00:01:19
know that for instance in Libya
kind of when I got out for
00:01:22
a few years to give up power after more
than $44.00 decades in charge of that
00:01:26
country Ontario's record of my dad the Arab
Spring came to me in Tunisia and Egypt
00:01:31
the presidents were forced from power after
mass street demonstrations. I literally
00:01:36
had on and I would of course
00:01:37
a lot of backbone was caught up in this
terror minute after he was sworn in as
00:01:41
president it's by the country's u.n.
00:01:44
Back to the Truck Commission to grabbing
the survivors that we know of the Paul
00:01:47
many does on the continent have amended
or attempting to amend their constitution
00:01:51
stream of time limits so I want to make
some of these leaders cling to power at all
00:01:55
costs let me join their culture of
impunity is what makes them cling to power
00:02:02
because they have done so much. You know
they've done many bad things to their own
00:02:07
people and they're so scared that if they
go out there without the bodyguards with
00:02:12
the tongs without anything there is
possibility that they will be brought to
00:02:17
account and so that's one number 2
there are lots of. He didn't I gin the
00:02:24
some of these leaders have for
instance the become so rich
00:02:31
within
00:02:31
a very short time and people wonder where
they get that money from and so they're
00:02:37
also afraid that when they go out there
without the machinery of the state then
00:02:42
they become powerless because all these
reduce can be stripped from them so the
00:02:47
bottom line is there's something wrong that
they have done that they don't want to
00:02:51
. Be held accountable for
people you agree with that.
00:02:59
You know discuss. One to
cling to power for over
00:03:05
a lifetime president. For 5 to little.
00:03:13
In my own lifetime I remember
Emperor Haile Selassie. The name
00:03:20
his own son. The crown
prince I felt what some
00:03:27
and the it provided. Even though. It.
00:03:34
Manifest in these terms much was
said needed and despite the needle
00:03:38
a lot of crises in it. Tell you try and
solve his government to collapse and never
00:03:45
want to give up you never want to tool
for. Fully even you please only hold
00:03:52
in the crown prince and then came the
military. Government and just let them out
00:03:58
and and then did she was.
Wanted to cling to power and
00:04:05
now we have the same scenario
so I think. The problem is
00:04:11
a dictator who wants to cling to power for
00:04:14
a lot if. They. Want to clean
00:04:21
it until it is say that I'm going to be
like my producer you know. In the case of
00:04:27
Uganda we all know what the president will
say in the. Speech I think it was in New
00:04:33
York that you and. The problem
of Africa is that it's it's one
00:04:40
totally and now we can see that. It's
00:04:46
a vicious circle and so I agree it's
00:04:48
a culture. If
00:04:56
if when I want to see it for the keep
it for. Yeah I think we need better
00:05:03
categorize them and they say that at
the moment we have good 2 categories
00:05:10
over the continent Yeah those
will. Be the concept of being
00:05:17
a president as being the service for the
people using their good to give an.
00:05:24
Extra talent turned into the
best guy that doesn't set
00:05:28
a precedence and make life
better and then there is
00:05:31
a category of The Rose who I
see. Who will take power up.
00:05:38
In tension throughout decided
that to them may be due to their
00:05:44
background will do to the condition of the
finder and the underground they find it
00:05:51
pretty damn power mean everything I
think though that that category the 2nd
00:05:56
category you know to only advocate
but could be a politically c b s
00:06:02
t v Don't you know where they are today in
power means everything and at the moment
00:06:08
even ready to meet you can
be done to represent. Them
00:06:13
a can't see so join us on mentions them
what happened to the idea of police
00:06:20
being
00:06:20
a public service why you got some of the
people the in the in other areas of the
00:06:24
wild or in the past people
just think of leadership as
00:06:27
a service the people who are the servant
of the people that sometimes would be the
00:06:30
case these days well it's not the case
these days because the concept of being
00:06:37
a leader has been. Misunderstood
or rather. Put in
00:06:43
a way that people go into politics in order
to loot because they see this is the
00:06:48
easiest to place where you can take
00:06:49
a lot of money and nobody holds you
accountable because if you look at what they
00:06:55
call. Parliament that is supposed to hold
executive accountable this parliament
00:07:00
becomes
00:07:01
a rubber stamp because most of the leaders
there want to police the president so
00:07:07
that they're appointed as ministers they're
appointed instead of Pakistan and so
00:07:12
the bottom line is that people who elect
these M.P.'s all members of parliament
00:07:18
suffer because these members of Parliament
go there for their own agenda not that
00:07:23
end of the people and I have seen it
in my country most people who. Would
00:07:30
want to of to go for politics you
see them becoming rich within
00:07:33
a very short time and you
wonder even m.p.e. Even m.p.
00:07:37
Salary is let's say 5000 years dollars per
month and he has like 20 people to take
00:07:43
care of where does he get
money to buy $65000.00 u.s.
00:07:47
Dollars and he has 5 of them on his own
Well that's a good money to put up
00:07:52
a $56.00 storey building within
00:07:54
a very short time so you wonder and to
me my conclusion is that people go to
00:07:59
politics in order to get rich so I ask
them to what extent is corruption and I'm
00:08:05
stealing
00:08:05
a favorite thief I mean this idea of
stealing not national resources in fact time
00:08:10
because it has clinging onto power. Yes
00:08:13
a lot of the one you know
when because. Most of.
00:08:20
The litter in most countries in Africa
limits even though they pretend.
00:08:29
Station. By the Constitution.
00:08:38
Limits because they're
absolute dictator of.
00:08:45
A country they give it to whomever they
want you know the credit patronage.
00:08:53
To keep in line with their. Dictatorship
of those who refuse to be psychopaths and
00:08:59
there will be limits. On that one point
or another point that we forgot is that.
00:09:06
The reason that they want to cling to
power most of these dictators is that the
00:09:11
very means that. They came to power
is usually by the bottom of the gun
00:09:18
and then the way they maintain their
policies also by the bottom of
00:09:21
a gun and then in the process you know
they call me a lot of crimes from point
00:09:27
a few to step down even though in the case
of my country of one point you know I'm
00:09:34
in 2005 when you come in the
ruling party of militia and. Its
00:09:41
election and when the opposition
realize that stepping down and even
00:09:48
told them that they're not going to we chant
you know that it's not going to be any
00:09:52
of the television and because. Most
of the opposition leader really felt
00:09:58
responsible that. They wanted to keep the
country safe you know that they do want
00:10:05
the country to go in in the power of you
know. They tried to come forward they
00:10:11
tried to really try to reassure them that
there's not going to be any backlash but
00:10:18
you know they didn't want to fool
proxied. A defeat for they can
00:10:25
put all of now all you know all of the
consequences of Clinton for power. Sometimes
00:10:32
you know when some of the city it happened
in Africa we thought we can some of you
00:10:36
can countries when. One
can put dies. That's
00:10:42
a country because they didn't have an Clift
any room for peaceful transfer of power
00:10:48
they didn't want any responsible person
pre-marriage you know in the absence.
00:10:55
Libya in the case of Libya and even some
of the African countries they're willing
00:10:59
to. Take
00:11:01
a look. Now at least 11. Elements between
00:11:09
lieutenants and his deputies when militia
and because of that point to one
00:11:16
person you don't know about him feeling
he has no part of and. For the people you
00:11:22
know. Warship. I don't really
00:11:29
mean that much but then somehow.
I mean a lot. More looks with
00:11:35
a visionary leader and the prime minister
the current prime minister while I'm out
00:11:39
in the following doesn't. You know
it doesn't surprise by him you know
00:11:46
he can't even come on
the armed forces it is
00:11:49
a committee you know behind him there is
00:11:51
a committee you know and the
ruling party. Where the real
00:11:58
resides and the to the right people people
Russian folk the minority ethnic group.
00:12:04
Now we are now the emergence of
the people because they found it.
00:12:12
Difficult for you know. For
one of them to emerge.
00:12:19
And replace my legs and. They thought
they canceled the scopolamine
00:12:26
by appointing him but I think the meantime
the ones who are on the short I think.
00:12:33
Is it fair to assume that some of the lead
up. To the perception that the strong
00:12:40
leader they may be very insecure that they
think if they live power they would be
00:12:45
held to account or. Made for you because
it doesn't suit you that they want to
00:12:52
cling to power.
00:12:59
Problem themselves.
00:13:07
That last.
00:13:22
Step seem to someone. Destructive.
00:13:33
Being destroyed.
00:13:57
So that the. People get.
00:14:04
Destroyed one by one.
00:14:11
Even the government. After.
00:14:20
Grumbling. About.
00:14:35
By that time. People like.
00:14:48
Mad because he wakes up on. The money in
00:14:53
a country. The country belongs to so that.
00:15:03
Destroy. The nation I think
gentlemen let's take
00:15:08
a short break on their discussion of power
addiction among African leaders. Well
00:15:15
maybe we don't need the break or less
continual but tougher than those of you
00:15:18
joining us right now we are listening for
photos roundtable and well coming to
00:15:21
a live from the voice of Michael Steele
is here in Washington our talk tonight is
00:15:25
politics and among African leaders as our
panelists John Townsend my colleague the
00:15:30
host of South Sudan in
focus the same kid from
00:15:33
a fresh on political commentator. South
Africa best independent political analyst
00:15:39
and I'm your host Douglas simple back here
in studio and I'm now joined you just
00:15:44
heard from. Slim out of there. Institutions
for the fall for you know to be
00:15:51
able to stay in power for longer than he
ought to he make sure that decisions are
00:15:56
collapsed because that would hold him
accountable. For this so you become the state
00:16:01
watchman Yes when they do talk to call it
because they know that the instruments of
00:16:07
accountability. Strong You cannot escape
them and so what they do is they are point
00:16:14
. Cronies in these strategic institutions
like the judiciary and the head of the
00:16:21
Parliament might put a speaker there
was your past and then put in
00:16:25
a finance minister who is your buddy and
put someone in charge of the military who
00:16:30
is your friend sign or brother brother
to the extreme and someone in charge of
00:16:36
national security who is your men and
so you continue ruling and these people
00:16:41
protect you because they've been defeated
by proxy they're given handouts and they
00:16:47
also enrich themselves they have their
own projects and so that this cycle
00:16:52
continues within this clinic and this is
done at the expense of the poor who are
00:16:59
suppose to get services from from
the government as they say but it's
00:17:05
unfortunate that voters you know
out are blindfolded. To $3.00.
00:17:13
During election time these corrupt leaders
go back to office and this is this is
00:17:19
this is what is happening in Africa despite
civic education despite the win is that
00:17:25
people created about people's rights about
human rights but the same people vote
00:17:31
and once they would these dictators in
the us end up being victims of I think
00:17:37
Justice and the least is just and this is
00:17:39
a sad story so gentlemen are
told to. Remember that this is.
00:17:46
So in that case that we need the medicine
so. What ought to be done now in that
00:17:52
case because. Across the continent the
number of people who want to cling to power
00:17:59
involved who are going to
succeed and some really fight
00:18:01
a 4th out of the 25005 the number is
growing you know the growth in this not
00:18:06
producing So what ought to be done
I think what ought to be done is.
00:18:14
Activity. You know human rights
defenders even for don't have to
00:18:20
respect their. Profession have to
continue to speak the truth they have to
00:18:27
credit our absolute. 0
up Absolutely not it is
00:18:34
still. It's not
00:18:37
a cliche I mean it's. A
valid statement. You know
00:18:44
experts who want to cling to power for
life but they're not totally destroy
00:18:48
institutions even quite correct
demented society they create. A
00:18:55
feudal. Feudal climate and because of
that we see that what's happening in
00:19:01
Rwanda and the old people one.
Minutes away and it's all over
00:19:08
which is not the case that we know
that we made to London's outside of
00:19:12
a one. Phylum seekers their. Preferred
because that extent these dictators you
00:19:19
know tries to wield their part and it's
very scary I think on the solution the
00:19:25
medicine is for activists to
continue. Picking up courageously
00:19:32
and to try to influence African Union
African Union. Some kind of legislation
00:19:39
against. Groups who
take power by accorded.
00:19:46
The union should also have to come up with
some kind of legislation of course the
00:19:52
African Union is also controlled by this
defenders but still you know the activists
00:19:58
shouldn't be discouraged by that they
have to continue speaking up and try to
00:20:04
influence the African Union and. Mickey to
pass some kind of legislation for those
00:20:09
school regulations for those who want
to continue for over. There is the.
00:20:17
Argument presented by. By. The
by the likes of the wind up
00:20:24
you know trying to justify you know and
trying to equate it with European countries
00:20:30
. That doesn't have that don't have you
know that doesn't have term limits but
00:20:37
these countries have. To take some balance
even though they don't probably before
00:20:43
their prime minister for their
president. Institutions had
00:20:48
a very strong in the case of most
African countries that is not. The case
00:20:55
you know they come from all the
institutions even controllable to create
00:21:00
a climate of fear in the society and.
00:21:07
Tools to do away with prison you know
all our own limits is. It's not right
00:21:15
I mean. That we have proper
checks and balances that
00:21:20
a power of any limits.
Limits you know we have to.
00:21:27
You know have to continue speaking up
against this kind of you know dictatorship.
00:21:34
That talks about speaking out by activists
by ever but they all can speak out but I
00:21:39
wonder. Which kind of. Language This is
what I understand because the Speaking
00:21:46
Out alone doesn't quite cut it. You speak
00:21:51
a different language what
do you think one of. Them.
00:21:59
What you have. What you.
Continue because what
00:22:06
is important is to reach the masses
the example of. The example in
00:22:13
Nigeria they have shown us that once
the population they feel. They need
00:22:20
to be dictators. Need to be clear about
that what we should make clear to the
00:22:26
people that there is no correlation
between us and the success of governance.
00:22:34
Only for us but. Only the
achievement within 4 years that
00:22:41
we tried to get. Some doors they
00:22:48
have not that what we have achieved.
00:22:55
In. My brain. They launched
00:22:58
a really savvy set around town. 5 guys.
00:23:07
They have said they had been able to meet
their elite in town an electric town
00:23:14
how how much do. You
need to be connected by.
00:23:25
That that enough. A leader has
to stay put that actually many
00:23:32
of them. Do something. They have
nothing to do with you're going to
00:23:38
get it I mean you've done that you don't
hear another bust out of the Government's
00:23:42
about them using your
gun you don't even have
00:23:44
a national bank in Uganda for that matter
for the money like they did that power so
00:23:51
. These dictators if they
do they come. Back what.
00:23:58
Somebody after they have lived in the country
that's it difficult to govern because
00:24:03
they create structures back to.
00:24:11
Front so you would get credit to
00:24:12
a presidential. The
Onion. Would take special
00:24:19
privileges unit but even so the country
gets breakdown after they have left so the
00:24:25
more they stay the more it will be difficult
to go to the country today that we
00:24:30
need to try to. Join the
main. Job. Go ahead bring.
00:24:38
Them on
00:24:39
a very good example about the
railway line. Making it. A railway
00:24:46
line and. You know they have
been in power for the last
00:24:53
25 years and we're not even sure
about that. And it depends on.
00:25:02
Electricity polity. You know. What.
00:25:15
I think so John maybe some of this
really does they feel that if they do
00:25:19
a lot of good things or do some development
in their countries they may finish all
00:25:23
the work so so and so they must spread it
out. Sometimes that's not necessarily the
00:25:28
case they're coming without projects
they come with their personal projects
00:25:32
personal ambitions of becoming very rich
and you know they do that so that you
00:25:39
don't touch them because money is power
and you have seen that most of the people
00:25:44
who have overstayed are very rich and they're
very powerful but I want to get back
00:25:49
to the question of using civil society to
change I am not sure whether the civil
00:25:56
society will be very very active in
00:25:58
a militarized society I'm
saying that given looking at
00:26:02
a country like South Sudan some South
Sudan is so militarized that people are
00:26:07
afraid to speak the media is working on
self-censorship because the government does
00:26:12
not want to listen to any other voice they
want the people to listen to their lies
00:26:17
only. I'm sorry to say that but that's
the truth in any alternative voice is
00:26:23
regarded as an opposition it's regarded
as you know poisonous and so in
00:26:28
a country like that I don't see this civil
society reaching out to the people with
00:26:34
a message of change and African Union are
coming to I'm thinking you know it's
00:26:38
a clash of dictators I have been saying
in my mother found that the dog does not
00:26:41
bite very hard so I don't see African Union
you know cracking down on these people
00:26:48
who are over staying in
power all we need is
00:26:50
a critical mass an elite mass that can reach
out to tell them come on man and women
00:26:56
who are voting every year to say no
don't vote this year you're voting for
00:27:00
a thief who will go and steal your money
so briefly. One Watoto do you think John
00:27:07
that this status quo can be changed
it can be changed but it needs
00:27:11
a lot of work and this has to start with
at an elite mass but the reason why I'm
00:27:17
saying that is because if you touched
that this country needs to change this
00:27:23
continent needs to change then you need
to reach out to somebody who is also
00:27:26
touched I say and the 3 or 4 of you all 5
of you in each country could come up with
00:27:32
a consortium that would you know do
something that would result into
00:27:36
a positive results because as
it is now the people inside had
00:27:41
a place so the money $1.00 word yes or
no will become this kind of stance for
00:27:44
change. So knowing that the
international community hopes.
00:27:53
You know that money can buy. No I came.
00:28:00
To my achievement on one of the
yes I know. Yeah it takes time.
00:28:08
Yeah yeah yeah but. One thing that I
would like caught a little bit of
00:28:13
a little bit about the civil society.
Completely disregard the civic society
00:28:19
because without civil society to be there
would come out quite critical much I
00:28:24
don't care if. You kind
of. May well call me no
00:28:31
pork and. We would. Want to cling to
00:28:37
power you know if you remember if
we remember. The middle of. That.
00:28:45
We had all the time of the you know thing
about public space you know I don't claim
00:28:50
Well yeah we got off to
00:28:52
a shot of me because you know this debate
that's the time we have for this edition
00:28:56
Reporters Roundtable let me
thank our panel John towns
00:28:59
a host of South Sudan in focus same key
flew an Ethiopian especially on political
00:29:03
mentor into. An independent economists based
in South Africa Gentlemen thanks very
00:29:07
much for being on the show you know what
you're welcome thank you for inviting me
00:29:11
you welcome our producer there was just one
you know engineer was John Braden we're
00:29:16
back again next week with another edition
of reporters roundtable and Amanda that
00:29:19
in case you missed any part of this program
you can see this intrigued by going to
00:29:22
our main web site w w
00:29:24
w dot venue's dot com click on Programs and
scroll down for vote on table. You know
00:29:31
email is reporter venue's dot com Thanks
again for tuning in and until next week.
00:29:36
Simple in Washington.
00:30:10
What's going on what's happening I forgot
this is Jacksonville got me right here in
00:30:14
Washington d.c.
00:30:15
And I'm not yes Sound me thanks for joining
us media love to have you on board this
00:30:20
up front on the boy said to me. Go
go well advice of American you yes.
00:30:28
You know. Regional to you
00:30:35
from the Voice of America and you'll see
when you money well I said yeah yeah.
00:30:47
In many schools across Africa displaying
00:30:49
a reaction often comes in form of corporal
punishment teachers do not hesitate to
00:30:55
use the cane slaps in whips to maintain
discipline in class students who under
00:31:01
performing class also Panish as
00:31:04
a weird to scare them into performing
better on the next exam in an education
00:31:08
system where
00:31:09
a lot of attention he's paid to performance
in standardized tests is to know who
00:31:14
falls behind his sudden grand will most
likely be punished by whipping beating will
00:31:20
slapping by the teachers now of lead to
there has been some of the bets on how we
00:31:26
corporal punishment he's in helping students
improve on this plane and academics in
00:31:32
some parts of Africa laws have been passed
to make it illegal to be students but is
00:31:37
still persists and we continue to seek
as West Indians are severely injured and
00:31:42
both physically and emotionally by the
beatings some to. And parents continue to
00:31:47
support corporal punishment they said that
this is the only way that this plane can
00:31:52
be maintained and I condemn x.
00:31:54
Improved in schools others disagree in
fact they say that such punishment is
00:31:59
ineffective and also violates international
child laws so what is your take on this
00:32:05
should be eating or corporal punishment
be banned in schools does your school
00:32:10
punish the students by beating them when
they commit an infraction older not do
00:32:15
well in school let's talk this is upfront
on The Voice of America on Jackson from
00:32:20
Daniel Washington with me in
Johannesburg South Africa.
00:32:34
In Africa generally when you are young the
best way to bring you up is to. Training
00:32:41
School either from your undies
or you. Model your father.
00:32:48
Glorious or being in
00:32:49
a man and being one in the future so
when you do something wrong the best
00:32:56
actually is to to to to long at least give
you something yes this of course when I
00:33:03
was in primary school to go to so many
of these one is that sometime you go to
00:33:08
school very late some time you know you
don't abide by this one rules of English
00:33:13
friends and the best way to go to you
is to give you some Pew kids find
00:33:18
a way how to correct them apart from having
inflicting physical feeling physical
00:33:25
injury to make them and as time that what
they're doing wrong you can correct them
00:33:30
I probably instilling maybe something else
maybe formation that can correct them
00:33:35
and help them understand what they're
doing is wrong and these would do things
00:33:40
differently you really hit the part of Fast
and punishing you don't matter whether
00:33:44
you are or not you see that is. The problem
because their time to go ahead I used
00:33:48
to hit them up was known now but I used
to hate them because the punishment they
00:33:52
would punish you and you think you're not
wrong but you see them they feel you are
00:33:56
wrong but because they don't find
00:33:58
a way to communicate to you they want to
inflict that. Or pain so that make you
00:34:04
invest time. Try you understand but you
sometimes people want to do that I think
00:34:09
anyway because. He doesn't walk. Down.
00:34:27
To.
00:34:38
The truth.
00:35:51
Had beating
00:35:52
a student for that student will be afraid
when the end of the class is that awful
00:35:57
because in trading on what you are she
is teaching you I should feel like
00:36:00
a loser beats me every day so do you what
you want was included on what is he or
00:36:05
she's teaching reading in school
even if they keep it in there in
00:36:08
a Jiffy Lube in some students one but once
you know. They told us to be beaten she
00:36:15
still could. Have caused her to
binge drinking I don't think that's
00:36:20
a very safe you talk to somebody and you
could do that just in the ways you can get
00:36:24
the things going to be able to react when
you're going to need to stop what's going
00:36:28
to come to them. No I have never been
beaten at school because when they teach us
00:36:33
trade something to me saying yeah I am
better to day when I was out there and not
00:36:40
making
00:36:40
a lot of money and said I'm getting better
when you get that idea about it but I
00:36:45
think it did and some of the programs the
girls and their job is to teach them and
00:36:50
Myrtle Beach and I'm upset
inspired mom who was
00:36:53
a friend see that to us in the conflicts
of interest which is to have those up on
00:36:58
point time from details on all 3 of you
what amounted to be consistent doesn't
00:37:03
allow you still by just
given mock freedom to be
00:37:07
a little I don't like I'm used to
talking with you is just not going to.
00:37:14
Be. My time in the world
to come up with herpes
00:37:18
a function that is so much in
dispute. Yet invented to prevent it
00:37:26
you know making
00:37:26
a little more you. Get into it when you
get. Paid and the more you put people
00:37:34
on my side that I did about
it I think you give that up
00:37:37
a few weeks ago because the job is
to ram and you have to be trouble.
00:37:47
We know that corporal punishment is used.
In schools around the continent for
00:37:54
a number of reasons most common
needs to instill discipline or to
00:38:01
to punish students fool for alleged
wrongdoing whatever the case may be
00:38:08
but we've certainly heard you
boards of young Julian d.c.
00:38:12
Being corporal punishment canings beatings
8 states for coming to school late
00:38:19
missing school without permission having
dirty with 2 in school uniforms and not
00:38:26
doing homework and this obeying
teaches the mind it's data it's
00:38:31
a state to these are just
some of the diseases and. And
00:38:35
a lot of these reasons are things that most
students would come across in the a.b.
00:38:39
Daily lives. You might be too late or you
might have missed you doing your homework
00:38:44
provided Do you think these and these are
things that happen in schools every day
00:38:49
and we need to discuss what is what is the
key to punishments being to be handed
00:38:53
out certainly be recon say that bringing
on the work will always be the best way.
00:39:01
The argument among the proper credit of the
punishments is that if you bid students
00:39:06
they will perform all the will understand
it better and they will know better next
00:39:11
time others disagree and say that this
form of education quote unquote damages
00:39:16
a student's prospects of being a well
formed adult but also in the fears with
00:39:21
a child's right to receive an education and
to be protected from violence Christer
00:39:26
know Corey is
00:39:27
a Nigerian American whose parents are
immigrants from Nigeria she went to school in
00:39:34
suburban Washington and was never on the
receiving end of any type of corporal
00:39:39
punishment
00:39:39
a the at school or at home so usually the
teachers would give the students about 2
00:39:45
to 3 warning. Things and then kind of
depending on the offense. If you have it they
00:39:51
would either kind of not let them go to
recess so they'd have extra homework. Extra
00:39:58
homework was going to. Be sent
to the to the principal's
00:40:04
office and then the teachers would be
called in to conferences so that's kind of
00:40:08
like the level of us collation sometimes
they were those the those if you did the
00:40:13
1st on 2nd time offense 3rd time offense
Yes So usually it was like warnings and
00:40:19
and if you kind of didn't pay attention
to the warnings then so it was like you
00:40:23
know recess more home or no different that
was already going to work for me I was
00:40:28
always afraid of getting really but like
for for other kids I mean it kind of just
00:40:32
depend mean you or you always have those
problem kids in class I really just like
00:40:37
don't care and act out but I feel like
00:40:38
a lot of it is just kind of like what's
being taught in just having. On the part of
00:40:44
teachers making sure that their content
is interesting to everybody and like can
00:40:48
keep everyone so there was the
option of being whipped by
00:40:51
a teacher or any school administrator for
any in front for you know never happened
00:40:56
was not part of it no not not at all not
what you were just out to understand that
00:41:01
wasn't part of the option was deaf ear at
any point that I will of play my hand and
00:41:08
that teacher might smack me you beat me
you know I mean there'd be legal rapper
00:41:12
questions to the school if that ever
happened to students and if you didn't you
00:41:15
knew that I mean I knew that that wasn't
the protocol so I mean because i never
00:41:22
happen so it did happen like write home and
tell Mom and Dad and now you know your
00:41:27
parents at home didn't spank you at all
you know I was always good company I mean
00:41:33
your parents I guess a different
approach Yeah I was I did actually
00:41:36
a different attitude too I think because
they went through that I feel like they
00:41:41
did not want to have the same approach to
disciplining their children as they went
00:41:46
through when they were young so
like with me and my brothers
00:41:48
a never was never was spankings at least
for me like they never kind of went that
00:41:53
route they usually just tell me to do
something and then I you were just
00:41:58
a good kid yeah basically group everybody
you know how to tell your side to them
00:42:03
how were you able to maintain that and get
away with it I mean what they don't know
00:42:08
can't hurt them right. You were
just too smart to quote when it
00:42:15
got to do you feel like that I'm bringing
ship to you yeah I mean I think it did I
00:42:20
mean I was always kind of
like still a total It's
00:42:23
a really Yeah I mean I think it I think it
did I think I kind of recognize now like
00:42:27
what I see at least isn't like generations
that I mean I feel like there's not as
00:42:32
much kind of respect for elders unlike
respect for parents and teachers as there
00:42:39
were in prior generations
which is which is
00:42:41
a bit alarming but for me. Kind of was like
I feel like I grew up with those values
00:42:46
of you know respecting those that are older
than you. But it's kind of unsettling
00:42:51
that there isn't that what is interesting
is that you say that in this generation.
00:42:58
Kids are not as respectful of their elders
or less display and then you were yet
00:43:05
you were both raised in the same system
well what's the difference between you and
00:43:09
them Ok I guess let me let me clarify
I notice kind of among. Was immigrant
00:43:16
families I feel like that's are as much
of an issue just because you have that
00:43:20
culture of kind of respecting those that
are older than you mean you call everyone
00:43:24
that order the new even if it's an older
cousin your uncle your auntie or whatever
00:43:28
but I feel like kind of in the mainstream
population those values aren't
00:43:33
necessarily as inherent I'm not sure
if it's necessarily due to the lack of
00:43:37
corporal punishment as it is just
00:43:39
a kind of the emphasis placed on like renting
Yeah yeah exactly so I feel like it's
00:43:45
just kind of your parenting style and
matching that to the personalities that your
00:43:50
children develop say grow because I mean
some kids are going to be slapped around
00:43:54
for them to really understand what's going
on and to actually change their behavior
00:43:58
but other kids you know you don't
necessarily have to go that route where.
00:44:08
What is the policy on corporal punishment
in South Africa where you began as
00:44:12
a young high school student Well corporal
punishment easy legal in South Africa
00:44:17
Jackson teachers do not have
00:44:20
a mandate to beat children and ease
against the no. The i've been many
00:44:26
cases we students have days the alarm
just recently revived and incident in
00:44:33
South Africa we amateur footage cellphone
footage actually has come to light
00:44:40
and students were beaten on the school
drawn by the principal and accompanied by
00:44:46
the school security guards
in the background summary
00:44:49
a fellow student was actually decoding the
beating this is causing huge opera in
00:44:54
the county and easy against the no Similarly
with patrons as well parents are not
00:44:59
in la and times of the Lol to beat the
children the problem is that in some of the
00:45:05
cases we've seen in South Africa and
school being done even though it's not
00:45:08
supposed to be done in the east will be
done and it's not just like beatings that
00:45:11
we're seeing Jackson it's beatings we young
people also. Staining C.D.'s in Judy's
00:45:17
we've seen bruising to the face
to the body. And there's been
00:45:22
a big outcry human it adds bodies are
saying we need to step up the watch against
00:45:27
this but on the other hand now teachers
are saying the situations in school are
00:45:33
becoming increasingly hard to deal with
and that today NJ is for. Behavior from
00:45:40
students in the school this has been
an issue that's been in our local news
00:45:44
a lot recently and we've certainly had
all humans from both sides. A lot of
00:45:51
tradition in this to say we're all in
the postie young people would be 10 and
00:45:56
they've turned out quite
a load I could do as
00:45:58
a means of instilling discipline but I
think the wadding fact is that in some of
00:46:02
the incidences we see it goes beyond
instilling discipline but it's actually
00:46:08
injuring children such
00:46:09
a way that it might did them all for
education that attends him away from school
00:46:14
that they don't want to come back into
the classroom they don't want to face
00:46:17
teachers because they are living in fear
and certainly that's not the type of
00:46:20
environment that you really want to have
in our schools anyway it on the country.
00:46:42
Was.
00:46:52
Going.
00:46:59
For it so your.
00:47:14
Studies. You.
00:47:22
Know.
00:47:32
It's.
00:47:43
Just.
00:47:51
That. People would they see here. Might be
00:47:57
tame to want their horses. To.
Believe that when you want
00:48:04
to somebody that doesn't feel you've done
something he also has done something
00:48:10
wrong you have to pinch
00:48:11
a beat David look I'm from South Sudan and
the culture of beating children. Child's
00:48:17
rights that. People are getting killed if
you get to look in the context of all of
00:48:23
our culture African culture.
I'm quite sure. It's not like
00:48:30
when people use beating like beating
00:48:32
a child to death you know my name is Eve I
was my. Dad I go south Sudan I do. What
00:48:39
I can say about. The punishment especially
in school for that moment. At home.
00:48:47
That it happens and not forgotten College
of not Italy I think this we have the
00:48:52
right and spoil the child came from I'm
not so sure about that is what I think it
00:48:56
came from I forgot
something like that you.
00:49:07
Tube. Julie. Julie Julie Julie.
00:49:22
This one goes both ways it depends
how you bring up my child I'm
00:49:26
a father I have 2 kids. 2 and 4
years sometimes I have to do with
00:49:33
them and you know make them my last time
and that what they're doing is not right
00:49:38
but I think also even if
you don't have to beat
00:49:40
a child for them to know if something is
wrong you can talk to them and you see
00:49:45
that if you talk to them politely it is
it it given goes far more than correcting
00:49:51
them like that beating them because you
see if you beat them you instill fear you
00:49:55
know in fear is not good especially for
00:49:57
a child grows up fearing somebody
or something that much they have
00:50:02
a vivid overtimes kind of psychological
problem so I think of punishment punishing
00:50:09
children is something which actually should
get one wished spanking is is actually
00:50:14
part of bringing up the child you know it
depends on the you know the context and
00:50:20
the culture. Consuming and when I
get back on the connection that.
00:50:30
Is trying to track. Now you have some
have argued that corporal punishment is
00:50:37
not limited to schools and that in
fact it's an extension of the type of
00:50:41
disciplinary action that many African parents
exercise at home with their children
00:50:47
when a child misbehaves they get slapped
so beaten by by anybody actually
00:50:51
a family member has the right to sue to
discipline them so I did use only doing
00:50:56
what is generally acceptable form of
disciplinary action you know African home so
00:51:01
my calling cannot fantic we were recounting
our experiences in high school he went
00:51:06
to school in I went to East to school
in East Africa where both recipients of
00:51:11
corporal punishment agrees with me that
I. This is an extension of the type of
00:51:17
display nary action or activity that many
African parents exercise in their homes
00:51:24
and so in school it becomes
00:51:26
a norm beating was part of their regular
school life it starts flag hoisting
00:51:32
ceremony in the morning where we seeing
National Anthem and right after the
00:51:39
national anthem is when they call the bad
boy self the entire school now is like
00:51:45
a morning ritual every day it's
00:51:46
a morning ritual. You know
we have homeroom teachers
00:51:53
who basically have our attendance they know
our grades and everything you know they
00:51:58
have an understanding of where everybody
is in terms of behavior and you know at
00:52:03
the end of the year they also give
you grades for that so they keep
00:52:08
a tab on you pretty much and one when the
time is full then you would be called out
00:52:13
in the morning flag hoisting ceremony and
come here and his crime would be read he
00:52:20
stole
00:52:21
a carrot from. A group Culture
Project where the student
00:52:28
actually worked. And he would be beat right
in front of us so he would be sentenced
00:52:35
to weeping like 10 weeping 15 weeping
I find something very disturbing with
00:52:39
a public whipping ceremony you know if you
like there is something ceremony you and
00:52:46
you know like some teachers enjoying the
teachers and very Here's the thing though
00:52:52
the students who are about to get that
whipping they understand it so you put on 3
00:52:58
or 4 pairs. Like
00:53:02
a winter jacket on. You know to suppression
of that so we actually did teachers
00:53:09
especially there's a unit leader
from from the teachers there's
00:53:13
a unit leader for that. For the entire
school one or 2 unit leaders was like. Fine
00:53:19
Isha she said we don't want to
say so it would try to 1st and
00:53:26
if it doesn't it gave us their expected
if it was like It's not like the way you
00:53:33
react to your heart then you need.
Your jacket. Take your pants.
00:53:40
You get everywhere and they have got and
create and over time I mean I don't know
00:53:46
how bad it is right now but I find that
school administrators have gotten very
00:53:51
creative and you know high school we had
00:53:53
a person whose job was to go on calling
from the forest did you have that person
00:53:57
that we have we have monitors class morning
talkers and usually the class monitors
00:54:03
especially when I was in elementary school
older guys you know this kids did some
00:54:09
farming or herding So they're like 15 when
they're in 1st grade so they would be
00:54:15
the monitors of like class
and actually in fact
00:54:18
a lot of the whipping comes from the
monitors they will just tell you sit down
00:54:23
straight and if you don't sit down straight
and don't say anything if the teacher
00:54:29
is not there it's them wanted to who is in
charge and they have every right to have
00:54:33
absolutely no use. For you and they want
to be the ones to go to the forest and
00:54:39
collect whips for the homeroom teacher and
the teacher says well but the problem is
00:54:45
you know these things don't last long they're
not plastics you said they're really
00:54:50
creative about it is if you in fact use
it it's going to break after weeping to
00:54:57
3 students they don't want they want it
to last year you did you read Bill it was
00:55:03
something that we're striving for Exactly
so this is some of this you know older
00:55:07
country boys that have
00:55:08
a way of making these things durable so
what they do is they smoke it so you put it
00:55:14
under
00:55:14
a chimney full. 2 weeks so when you wait
but child it's flexible enough that it's
00:55:21
not going to break and one
of my 2nd grade classmates.
00:55:28
I remember his name he had 61
whipping on the left hand and
00:55:35
yes he stopped crying at some point and
he just you know it's just just horrible
00:55:40
it's cruel I guess you know. The most
bizarre way that's their way of fighting
00:55:46
deforestation you know. But I think as
much for you know in high school as though
00:55:51
the school had a budget for
00:55:54
a week and actually you know the ones
that they used during slavery. We
00:56:01
had
00:56:02
a budget for that. To get something from you
know somebody goes to the market to buy
00:56:08
that the unit leader carries one all the
security guards in front of the school to
00:56:12
carry one so they would be like whipping
students as they go into ice not
00:56:18
a lot of. High school class there was
00:56:21
a bit of enjoyment here by the people who
had that we need for them in some way of
00:56:26
discipling students really I mean for me
it's really cruel and it's reciprocated
00:56:34
the money turned into
00:56:35
a class does exactly the same thing that
the teachers do and even some of your
00:56:41
classmates amongst one another we've become
you know violent beating someone is Ok
00:56:46
it's justified you can beat someone you can
bully someone whatever you want because
00:56:50
you know violence in a way as
I said plenty Yes measured as
00:56:54
a differently just more of my never singing
the national anthem how effective was
00:56:59
this as
00:56:59
a disciplinary measure how effective I'll
tell you what it can be effective for
00:57:04
some but mainly if you look at it
00:57:08
a lot of students in fact when they are
in high school they started rioting and
00:57:13
saying well if the teacher wants to be.
I'll beat you because now I'm old enough to
00:57:17
beat you so that was. The reaction that
most of the teachers were getting but I
00:57:24
think teachers in elementary schools can
get away with it because the children are
00:57:28
not physically you know mature enough to
challenge them and saying why are you
00:57:33
beating me so you just take the beating
and hope that more of them are not coming
00:57:39
it's sad you know it doesn't help
students learn better. It doesn't help
00:57:46
students behave better but you
know. Yes and it's going to.
00:57:54
Solve their problems by just
like. Yes treating is the.
00:58:03
Thank you very much thanks for having me.
00:58:16
Now you want to child is in school
teachers expected to act as
00:58:20
a substitute parent so one should treat
the students as if they were their own
00:58:27
and many cases the students don't feel that
way absolutely Jackson I mean you would
00:58:33
hope that your days your child and instill
the nascent city to speak for you Al
00:58:39
does and the daily food for the
classroom and the school and you feel
00:58:43
a Lynas and so it is frustrating for
teachers as well we we see teachers are
00:58:49
teaching overcrowded Closs is really they've
got sometimes $100.00 or more students
00:58:54
to across the room and or did it takes is
00:58:57
a small pocket to decide operating
for the whole day I mean the extreme
00:59:01
frustrations on both sides
but surely there is
00:59:04
a line between instilling
discipline and punishing in
00:59:07
a nonphysical way to floating
00:59:10
a child reply disposal Surely that's not
acceptable Surely that's against you.
00:59:15
Writes and Sidney and be a dad
has an impact on education j.d.
00:59:20
.
00:59:29
Thanks trying out of us today guys we
always love having you on board and we love
00:59:33
to hear from you so keep those comments
coming in to up front of you know News dot
00:59:38
com It was awesome hanging out will be here
same time same place next week I'm not
00:59:43
you saw me signing off from both Africa and
objects involved in Washington on until
00:59:49
next time good bye. This is where.
00:59:58
You.
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